From: (g-perrin)

Subject: Re: Colloidal minerals [Fact-long]


You wrote:


>Please use for your response to this posting only the address of the list

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>Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:18:31 -0500 (EST)

>From: Linda Burton <>



>I am curious if any readers of this list have come into contact with

>colloidal mineral and vitamin supplement products. They seem to be very

>popular right now and come backed by an incredible list of benefits for

>those who take the preparation for long terms. (The promoter actually

>recommends you take the product for life) The product I have seen is sold

>through a pyramid-like or Amway- like scheme, which makes me skeptical.





If you like myths, unsubstantiated claims and fall prey to a sharp

marketing technique, then you'll fervently embrace 'Dead Doc's DO

LIE'...but if scientific fact and knowledge appeals to you more than

reading the Enquirer, then you appreciate the following posts which

appeared on the sci.nutrition list last year.


Further, if one checks the newsgroups, they'll find mostly posts

by MLM'ers selling their products with their hype...and those that post

postive claims, which in the eyes of science are simply

anecdotal experiences...and have no value in a -valid- study. There are

no _valid_ studies in the literature that support colloidals, only

the 'manufactured' pseudo studies, financed by the promoters of the

product, that give testimony to colloidals. It's common knowledge

there is a placebo effect that can be applied to any substance..

which can account for the infrequent anecdotal claims. [such as the

one that appears by "sue" on this thread]


Lastly, when considering information sources, ALWAYS QUESTION IT,



jay perrin, DC


Expose on Dr. Joel Wallach's controversial new tape, "Dead Doctors

Don't Lie"


To: All Nutrition Detectives

From: Steve Cherniske

RE: Audio tapes making the rounds


Views you can use

Stephen Cherniske, M.S.


Items reviewed:

Pre-Launch audio tape by Joel Wallach for New Visions.



I've received calls from CEO's of various network marketing

companies complaining that my reviews "make the industry look

bad." "No," I reply, "it is the hype-ridden baloney that many

network marketing companies are foisting upon the public that

threatens this industry." Then they advise me to "paddle my

own canoe" instead of trying to sink others, and I explain that

I'm not out to sink anyone. It's just that nutrition is a

science, and it steams me to see the science I love perverted

into a circus side show. Someone has to blow the whistle sometime.

Otherwise the industry will collapse from the weight of unfounded,

insupportable gobbledygook that spews constantly from fax machines

all over the world.


Sorry. I just thought it best to explain myself before giving you

more evaluations. Let's look at a few tapes that have come across

my desk (and no doubt yours) this week.


Dead Doctors Don't Lie, by Joel Wallach, DVM, ND.


Background: It's becoming common for emerging network marketing

companies to send out audio tapes in advance of their launch to

generate excitement and visibility. The tape by Dr. Wallach is

very effective because it is extremely controversial. The title,

Dead Doctors Don't Lie gives you an idea. And Wallach is a very

compelling speaker. His Midwest accent and down-home manner comes

across as believable and straightforward. He is a veterinarian

(DVM) by training and also received a Naturopath (ND) degree.


And now the news:

As I listened to the tape, I became more and more annoyed by

the doctor bashing. Keep in mind that I have no love affair

with the AMA, but I have worked very closely with many physicians

over the years and took offense at Wallach's cynical generalizations

and unfair exaggerations. This was especially bothersome because

of the one-sided format. Taking pot-shots at an adversary when

he (or she) has no opportunity to respond is unprofessional to

say the least. So I see this review as an effort to "keep everyone



Let me begin by saying that I agree with Joel Wallach's basic

position, that nutritional supplements are an effective and

reliable way to improve ones health. I also think that it is

best to minimize one's intake of drugs and reliance upon

hospitals and surgery. But I believe that Wallach goes off the

deep end in condemning the entire medical profession, and I think

that much of his information is DEAD WRONG.


True or False


Imagine you just purchased a brand new car, and as the salesman

shakes your hand he informs you that roughly 50% of the information

in the owners manual is incorrect. How would you feel? First of

all, it would be impossible for you to take care of your new car

because you wouldnt know what information was true and what was

false. The manual, in other words, would be useless, and your

investment would be in jeopardy.


I think tapes like Dead Doctors Don't Lie are like faulty owners

manuals. The vehicle in this case is your body, which is far

more valuable than any car, and when learning about it, you have

to determine if the material is accurate. Following are my

points of disagreement with Dr. Wallach. Judge for yourself.


1. He is listed on the tape as a 1991 Nobel Prize nominee for

medicine. While that sounds impressive, you have to understand

that anyone can nominate anyone for a Nobel prize. I would like

to know what accomplishment he was nominated for and what level

his nomination reached. After all, I have been nominated for

President of the United States. Impressed? I hope not.


2. Dr. Wallach claims to have performed over 3,000 autopsies on

humans. When I called Bastyr University, the nations foremost

Naturopath school, they informed me that ND's are not licensed

or trained to perform human autopsies.


3. Dr. Wallach states that pica is a disorder in which a person

craves sweets. In fact, it is a hunger for non-food substances

such as soil or metal.


4. He states that the average lifespan of a doctor in America

is 58 years. According to the National Center for Health

Statistics, American physicians live an average of 69.7 years,

less than the national average, but certainly more than Dr.

Wallach would have us believe.


5. Dr. Wallach states that an anti-cancer diet has been

discovered. But his data is derived from a Chinese study in

which a large proportion of the participants were seriously

malnourished. It is not reasonable to conclude that anyone who

takes vitamins A, E and beta carotene will have the same

reduction in cancer risk.


6. He states that 50% of 70 year old Americans have Alzheimer's

disease. In fact, careful research shows that the incidence of

Alzheimer's disease in Americans 65 to 74 years of age is

approximately 3.9%. Reference: Evans D. et al. Estimated

Prevalence of Alzheimers Disease in the United States. The

Milbank Quarterly 1990; 68(2): 267-287.


7. He talks of preventing Alzheimer's disease in pigs with

vitamin E and a low vegetable oil diet. In fact, pigs don't

get Alzheimer's, and there is no evidence that this approach

has any benefit for humans with this disease.


8. Dr. Wallach recommends the use of butter over olive oil

for longevity when a virtual mountain of research supports

the opposite view.


9. He states that gray hair at any age and face wrinkles are

due to a copper deficiency. This is absurd and insupportable.


10. His claim that cardiomyopathy is a selenium deficiency

is equally absurd, and illustrates a serious error in thinking.

Cardiomyopathy is not a single disease but a group of disorders

that involve the heart muscle. (cardio= heart, myo=muscle,

pathy= disease). Cardiomyopathy can result from a host of

causes including genetic defects, nutritional deficiency,

metabolic disease, infection, trauma and alcoholism. Yet

Wallach lumps all cardiomyopathy into a single disease with

a single cause, selenium deficiency. Even his examples are

dead wrong. He goes on and on about Stewart Berger, a doctor

who died of cardiomyopathy, yet Wallach knows nothing about

this doctor. If he had bothered to do even a little research,

he would have learned that Berger had a life-long weight

problem (weighed over 300 when he died) and may also have

abused drugs. Either of these factors can cause

cardiomyopathy, but according to Wallach, Berger was simply

deficient in the mineral selenium. In fact, Berger regularly

took an enormous amount of nutritional supplements, including



11. He makes the same mistake when talking of aneurysms, the

bulging of an artery. Although medical texts list some 40

different types of aneurysm, with a variety of causes

including atherosclerosis, cancer, bacterial infection and

hypertension, Wallach claims that all aneurysms are caused

by a copper deficiency.


12. He states that male pattern baldness is a tin deficiency.

This is entirely incorrect.


13. He states that Bells palsy is a calcium deficiency when

in fact it is a clear neurological disorder. Many

individuals have suffered from Bells palsy (interruption

of a facial nerve resulting in partial paralysis of the face)

after trauma or injury. Did these people all suddenly become

calcium deficient? And if the disorder is a calcium

deficiency, why is Bells palsy so rare?


14. He states that sugar metabolism disorders (diabetes and

hypoglycemia) are a vanadium deficiency when vanadium has

not even been recognized as an essential nutrient for humans.


15. He states that arthritis is osteoporosis of the joint

ends of the bones. This is incorrect.


16. He claims that sodium intake has nothing to do with

high blood pressure, citing the fact that he used to put

salt licks out for his cows and they never got high blood

pressure. What incredible reasoning! Could it be that cows

use the salt lick as needed, while humans routinely consume

massive amounts of sodium for taste and as food additives?

In fact, the human body was designed for a high potassium,

low sodium diet through 1.6 million years of hunting &

gathering. Today's highly processed and refined diet

supplies minimal potassium and enormous amounts of sodium,

and we suffer as a result.


This is probably my major objection to this tape; the fact

that important points like this are over-simplified and

exaggerated. If Wallach actually did his homework, he would

find that fully one-third of the studies evaluating calcium

intake and hypertension actually show no consistent benefit.

REFERENCE: McCarron DA; Hatton D; Roullet JB; Roullet C.

Dietary calcium, defective cellular Ca2+ handling, and

arterial pressure control. Canadian Journal of Physiology

and Pharmacology, 1994 Aug, 72(8):937-44.


This may be due to the fact that calcium supplementation

appears to work best for people whose previous intake of

calcium was very low.


17. Wallach dismisses the importance of good oral hygiene

in preventing periodontal disease (receding gums). Instead,

he claims the problem is simply a calcium deficiency.

While adequate calcium intake is certainly important for the

maintenance of the bone that anchors the teeth (alveolar

bone), the deterioration of this bone is a late stage in

periodontal disease. The progression of periodontal disease

is actually well understood. First there is the accumulation

of bacterial plaque, masses of bacteria that are actually

visible to your dentist. The infection then spreads to the

periodontal ligament which attaches the tooth to the bone,

and finally, the bone begins to deteriorate.


18. One of the most simplistic and nonsensical claims made

on this tape is that people who live to be a hundred drink

40 cups of tea every day and put rock salt and two pats of

butter in each cup. On the other hand, doctors (who Wallach

claims only live to be 58) tell you to reduce salt and

butter. Wallach then asks "Who are you going to believe?"


First of all, I would like to know where these tea, rock

salt and butter consuming people are. I have traveled

throughout Asia and have studied longevity at great length,

and have never encountered such behavior. And even if there

are people with such habits, certainly the vast majority

of centenarians do not drink 40 cups of tea each day loaded

with butter and rock salt. So I will ask you the same

question..."Who are you going to believe?"


19. Then there's the hysterectomy issue. Wallach states

that "The medical treatment of choice for PMS is a

hysterectomy." This is utter nonsense. He also claims that

doctors perform about 285,000 unnecessary hysterectomies

each year in order to make their Mercedes payments. This

borders on hate mongering, and once again is a gross

exaggeration. The total number of hysterectomies performed

in the US in 1993 was 560,000 and the vast majority of

there were performed because of ovarian cancer or other

disease. Where does Wallach get his figures? Now there

is no doubt that many hysterectomies are unnecessary,

but a careful study utilizing second opinion data showed

that only 8% of elective hysterectomies (eg. those

performed because of ovarian cysts) were unconfirmed.

REFERENCE: Finkel ML; Finkel DJ. The effect of a second

opinion program on hysterectomy performance. Medical

Care, 1990 Sep, 28(9):776-83.


If you take the approximate number of elective

hysterectomies (124,000) and multiply by 8%, you get

9,920, not 285,000. Wallach further states that the AMA

says that these (285,000) hysterectomies are unnecessary,

but when I contacted the AMA regarding this, they had

no idea what he was talking about. Of course, as you

might have guessed, Wallach states that PMS is really

just a calcium deficiency.


20. Wallach states that all low back pain, "whether you

work on a computer, unload hay or drive big trucks" is

due to osteoporosis. This is absurd, as most low back

pain is caused by muscle or ligament strain.


21. Wallach states that he has seen diabetes cured in

"hundreds and hundreds" of individuals simply by taking

chromium and vanadium supplements. Again, it is

well-known that these trace minerals are important in

glucose metabolism. It's also true that the medical

community in general underutilizes trace minerals in

treating diabetes. But I know dozens of doctors who

include trace minerals in their treatment plans,

and not one of them would agree with Wallach. They,

along with the entire health care community, would

love to see his patient records to verify his claims.


22. Wallach's treatment of colloidal minerals is also

filled with errors. While any organic chemist knows

that soil-based compounds can be divided into metals and

non-metals, he calls all of these "metallic minerals."

He claims that these metallic minerals are only 8 to

12% absorbable, and after age 35 to 40, that drops to

3 to 5%. Where does he get these numbers? What happens

at age 35 that reduces mineral absorption by 60% ?

Whenever I hear ridiculous numbers like this thrown

around I challenge the speaker to provide

documentation. No one ever has.


In reality, the absorption of minerals depends on an

enormous number of variables, the most important of

which is physiologic need. Someone who is deficient

in calcium will absorb a great deal more of the

mineral (in any form) than someone who is adequately

nourished. Another variable is vitamin D status.

Someone adequately nourished in vitamin D will absorb

far more calcium (in any form) than someone deficient

in vitamin D. Other variables include nutrient form

(calcium citrate is absorbed much better than calcium

phosphate) and meal composition (vitamin C helps the

absorption of iron and zinc).


23. He tells a story of a man who owned a portable

toilet company finding hundreds of intact vitamin tablets

in his toilets. Wallach uses that story to prove that

"you can't absorb metallic minerals." In fact, all that

proves is that some vitamins are tableted improperly.

To make the sweeping statement that all vitamin tablets

are unabsorbed is like saying that because Yugos break

down all the time, all automobiles are unreliable. In

nutrition as in automobiles, there are the Yugos and

there are Rolls Royces.


24. Wallach states: "If you read the labels on those

multiples, they say your iron comes in the form of iron

oxide. What is iron oxide? Rust!" While this point is

dramatic, it is also patently false. In the last ten

years, I have reviewed more than a thousand different

multimineral formulations, and not one of them used iron



25. Wallach's calcium lactate story also contains multiple

errors. He states that in a 1,000 mg tablet, 250 mg is

calcium and the remaining 750 mg is lactose or milk sugar.

In fact, calcium lactate is a compound of calcium and

lactic acid, which is an organic acid found in apples,

tomatoes and other fruit as well as beer and wine. He

then states that you'll only absorb 10% of the calcium in

such products, but that claim is unsupported.


26. His claim that colloidal minerals are 98% absorbable

is probably the most important statement on the tape

(since hes selling colloidal minerals) but I could find

no documentation in the medical or agricultural literature

to document that. As mentioned in # 22 above, the

absorption of minerals depends upon a host of factors,

only one of which is the form in which they are delivered.


I am not saying that colloidal minerals are not valuable.

They are probably a very good mineral source, but in

order to evaluate their worth to human health, we need

more than just claims and audio tapes. Mineral absorption

is verifiable through scientific experiment. I have such

data on the mineral compounds that I use, and I would

expect that Wallach or anyone making these claims should

be able to do the same. As of this writing I have not

seen a single study comparing the absorption of colloidal

minerals vs. mineral salts or chelated minerals

in humans. Hmmmm.


27. Wallach states that the human body stores, uses and

transports minerals in their colloidal state. This is

not true. Most minerals are stored as salts of calcium

or phosphorus. Others are found in compounds with

proteins or lipids, or simply components of enzymes

and hormones. In fact, minerals in the human body are

often found in their free ionic state. Magnesium, for

example, is found in numerous body tissues, with only

about 30% bound to any type of carrier molecule.

REFERENCE: Shils ME. Physiological Chemistry of

Magnesium. In: Present Knowledge in Nutrition. The

Nutrition Foundation. Washington D.C. 1984. pp 422-438.


28. More colloidal confusion. Wallach notes that all

of the long-lived cultures drink glacier water which

contains ground up rocks in solution. But these are

simply metallic minerals, the very compounds he

previously stated were unabsorbable. I don't get it.

Then he says, "Are these colloidal minerals important?

You bet your life they are." My question is, what

colloidal minerals is he referring to?


END OF DOCUMENT BY Stephen Cherniske, M.S.




>Does anyone have any research data pro or con regarding colloidal


> It seems people either love it or hate it and I would like to see

>some rational objective data....


****The Truth about Colloidal Minerals****


The following is a research paper written by Doug Grant, exposing

the hazards of colloidal minerals. The material is referenced at

the end and contains vital health information you should be aware

of, especially in the climate of hype and misinformation. What

you do with it is up to you. The only important issue here is

THE TRUTH. What we sometimes accept as "truth" is often too easily

packaged in deceptive garb, so it is vital for you to take the

time to listen to ALL the facts!


As a nutritionist, I have watched the industry evolve over the

past few years as more and more people are becoming interested in

nutrition and health. Because of the excitement and the large

influx of people who buy natural products and want to improve

their health through natural means, many companies have seen

the potential for profit. Along with some reputable firms, there

are many companies that resort to trying to capture a share of

the market by using hype and misinformation. Often their sales

techniques resemble those used in the old "medicine peddler"

days when anecdotal stories and "old wives tales" were used to

convince people to buy useless elixirs and potions.


I will use this article to expose what I feel to be one of

the biggest misinformation campaigns in today's health

products market. I'm referring to colloidal minerals. Colloidal

minerals are getting a lot of publicity, and many companies

have used colloidal minerals to amass millions of dollars in

sales simply by using anecdotal stories about the effects of

these minerals. Many of these stories come from an audio

tape entitled, "Dead Doctors Don't Lie", that is currently

being widely circulated. this paper, you will find facts based on true

research. In many instances throughout this paper, I have

provided references so, if you choose, you may go to

those sources for additional, in-depth details.


To help you gain an understanding of what colloidal minerals

are and the possible toxic effects of these kinds of

minerals, I will first share with you some information

and research findings from one of the world's leading

authorities on this subject, Albion Laboratories.


Definition of Colloidal Minerals:

For years, Albion has been dedicated to research regarding

minerals. In addition, Albion holds over 60 international

patents in the process of mineral chelation. The next few

paragraphs on colloidal minerals were written by Albion's

Max Motyka, M.S.:


"According to Dorland's Illustrated Dictionary, 24th Edition,

a colloid is: A state of matter in which the matter is

dispersed in or distributed throughout some medium called

the dispersion medium. The matter thus dispersed is called

the disperse phase of the colloid system. The particles of

the disperse phase are larger than the ordinary crystalloid

molecule, but not large enough to settle out under the

influence of gravity."


"The current edition of Random House Dictionary of the

English Language defines colloids:

Physical chemistry A. a colloidal system, one in which a

finely divided solid is suspended in a liquid: such

colloids range from solutions to gels. B. a colloidal

suspension. C. a substance that when suspended in a liquid

will not diffuse easily through vegetable or animal membrane."


"During the lecture by Dr. Joel Wallach, as heard on the

tape entitled, 'Dead Doctors Don't Lie,' the doctor

states that colloidal minerals are so small that they

require no effort to be absorbed. The hype behind the

colloidal minerals tells us that the particles are so

small that have direct permeability into your body's

tissues. Yet, in the definition of colloids from Random

House, under section C, we are told that the colloidal

substances "...will not diffuse easily through vegetable

or animal membrane."


"Dr. Wallach further states that colloidal minerals are

absorbed at a rate of 98%. Why not 100%? Since there is

no scientific documentation on colloidal mineral

absorption besides his say so, shouldn't the sky be the

limit? By definition, a colloidal mineral is that mineral

finely divided and suspended in a liquid. Why suspended?

Why not dissolved? Because the mineral forms in the

colloidal minerals are not soluble, that's why. When a

mineral form is dissolved in a liquid, it then exists

in its smallest possible form (either as part of a

bioavailable molecule or as a positively charged

atom (cation). When the other mineral forms present

themselves to the absorptive surfaces of the intestine,

they are in their smallest possible form or liquid form.

Colloidal minerals are much larger in size than other

mineral forms. According to Remington's Pharmaceutical

Sciences, colloidal mineral particles each consist of

many aggregates, and each aggregate contains many

molecules. Obviously, colloidal minerals exist in particle

sizes many times larger than the other mineral forms."


As Motyka points out, because of their size, colloidal

minerals are not absorbed by the body. Another

consideration about colloidal minerals is apparent in

a statement from Dr. Royal Lee. Dr. Lee is one of the

most respected men in the area of nutritional knowledge

to have ever lived. Here's what he says about colloidal

minerals: "A colloidal mineral is one that has been so

altered that it will no longer pass through cell walls

or other organic membranes." (2)


In order for a mineral to be absorbed through the cell

wall, and thus be available for use in the body, it must

be smaller than the colloidal mineral form, as Motyka

pointed out. Research also shows that a mineral must be

"chelated", or bound to an amino acid. Unless minerals are

chelated to amino acids, they cannot be absorbed properly

and utilized by the body. (3)


While the next quote is fairly technical, it explains the

need for chelation. Following the quote by Dr. Ashmead,

I will clarify some of the points:


"For absorption of a mineral from a salt to occur, it

must be presented to the mucosa as a cation. Numerous

studies have demonstrated that, after ingestion, metal

salts are generally ionized in the stomach, providing

they are soluble. If no interfering chemical reactions

occur, the cations enter the intestine where they are

bonded to amino acids from the chyme or to the carrier

proteins embedded in the luminal membranes of the mucosal

cells... Conversely, the amino acid chelate is not ionized

before absorption. It is not affected by different

precipitating anions because the metal ion in the molecule

is chemically inert due to the coordinated covalent and

ionic bonding by the amino acid ligands. It is not

affected by the pH of the stomach and survives as an

intact molecule particularly after the chelate has been

stabilized through a particular process." (4)


What this quote is saying is that taking in a mineral salt

or an unchelated mineral places an unnecessary burden on

the body. The body must, on its own, create the amino

acid bond that will allow the minerals to be absorbed.

On the other hand, if you take in minerals that are

already chelated to an amino acid, the body is spared that

work and the body's resources are reserved for other

purposes. If you have heard stories about people who have

noticed any benefits at all from taking colloidal minerals,

these stories may hold a particle of truth. These people

may, indeed, have ansorbed some of the minerals, but only

by forcing their bodies to chelate the minerals itself,

and to expell great resources and energy in the process.

Thus, the positive results they may have experienced were

derived at a much greater long-term cost to their body.

It makes more sense and is healthier to take minerals

into the body in chelated form to begin with so that you

don't rob your body of precious energy and resources. (5)


Research also shows that, even, though the body tries to

help out, colloidal minerals and other popularly marketed

forms of minerals are still inferior in their rates of

absorption. ....


..... Let's return to the words of Max Motyka to discover

another fallacy as far as absorption of colloidal minerals

is concerned. Motyka says:


"In addition, Dr. Wallach states that the colloidal minerals

are negatively charged, and thus are strongly attracted to

the positively charged surfaces of the intestinal lining,

where absorption takes place. A quick review of basic

physiology of absorption will tell you that the intestinal

lining has a negative charge, not a positive charge, as

stated by Dr. Wallach. If colloidal minerals are negatively

charged, they would be repelled by the intestinal lining,

not attracted to it, making their absorption impossible.


Motyka continues with an interesting question, he says:

By the way, just what is the chemical makeup of a colloidal

mineral? The word colloidal describes the physical form,

not the chemical form of the mineral. Are they oxides

(iron rust)? Free metals? Metal ore? Many are even toxic

elements! Their marketers claim them to somehow be negatively

charged. One text states that they are clay minerals

extracted by organic acids (probably humic and fulvic

acids). Most people taking colloidal minerals really don't

know what they are putting into their bodies. This probably

doesn't matter. After all, these colloidal minerals are

not really fully ansorbed anyway. Could that be a safety



I hope the evidence provided in this paper will be of

service to you. It should help you to see that it is

vitally important to look beyond the hype that many companies

use. With that kind of hype, many companies are promoting

colloidal minerals. After reading this paper, do you think

those companies are truly dedicated to your health?



2. Lee, Royal, D.D.S. The Mineral Elements in Nutrition."

The writings of Royal Lee.

3. Ashmead, Harvey, et al. Intestinal Absorption of Metal

Ions.: Charles C. Thomas: Springfield, Illinois. 1985

4. Ashmead, DeWayne, Ph.D., ed. "Chelated Mineral

Nutrition in Plants. Animals and Man." Charles C. Thomas:

Springfield, Illinois. 1985

5. Ashemad, H. DeWayne. "The Roles of Amino Acid Chelates

in Animal Nutrition." Noyes Publications: Park Ridge, New

Jersey. 1993

6. Ashmead, Harvey, et al, op cit.

7. Ashmead, DeWayne, Ph.D., ed., op cit. page 14.

8. Heaney, RP: "Calcif Tiss Int" (1990) 46: 300-4.

9. Recker, R. et al., Am Journal of Clinical Nutrition."

1988; 47:93-95

10. Heaney, op cit.

11. Ashmead, HD, "The effects of supplementary calcium